Tim Reitsma: Let us unpack just a little bit about who you are and what you're up to, and I'm going to put you on the spot with a simple definition of what workplace culture is. 

Gustavo Razzetti: Fantastic. So, I'm going to see if I can bring all those elements together. So one of the things I love to do is cook, and I'd like to cook cuisines from all over the world. And when I work with clients on workplace culture and team building, I always tell them, You tell me which ingredients you can bring to the table, and I would cook something with it. So the more you give me, the more I can take. So that's kind of sums up my definition of culture.

Culture is about beliefs. It's about behaviors. It's about the principles that define how teams work. We need to make sure that we're going in the right direction. That's alignment. We need to make sure that people feel part of something bigger than themselves, that they're emotionally connected, that they're welcome, that's belonging.

And lastly, we need to set clear rules of how we work together, collaboration, how we make decisions, what are the norms and rules, and how we meet both asynchronously and in real time.

Tim Reitsma: I love that clarity, that ABC. I'm looking at my notes, alignment, belonging, and collaboration. 

You said a word in there. That I'm wondering if people will just get curious about, because I'm getting curious about the word rules. I've got a couple of kids; they're very little. And when I lay out rules, I often get eye rolls or like, Come on, dad. How in organizations, when you use that language, do people react?

Gustavo Razzetti: There's a balance, and I think this has to do with everything related to culture—that we go from one extreme to another. So traditionally, organizations were very prescriptive, very top-down, and we're full of rules. Now people say, no, like your kids, like eyebrows. So no, I don't want rules.

In order for our group to function. We need to have some agreements, right? We need to have the right agreements, no more, no less. So if you're driving your car and there are no traffic lights, the chances that we're going to get into an accident are really high, but that doesn't mean that we need to have a traffic light on every basically crossroad.

Basically, there are some points where maybe a stop is enough. And in some other areas, we don't need any. And I think that represents my approach to culture. So if you're too prescriptive, people feel that they're being treated like kids and that you're telling them what to do. If everything's a little bit like you're figuring it out, then people either understand what they want to understand or people get different messages and then the end crashes.

Tim Reitsma: I love that, and it ties directly into that collaboration. If it's just rules from the top down, we feel that it's rigid. But if we built that trust and invited that collaboration into defining what our culture is, because every organization has a different culture. So I love that. 

I'm curious, especially when we think about HR's role in culture. And what have you seen in organizations? What have you heard in the work that you do? And how HR, specifically an HR leader, plays a role in defining or keeping that culture going. 

Gustavo Razzetti: Yeah, I think that we are seeing a huge shift. But traditionally, culture experts or people in departments were seen as the ones who own culture, and they're by choice or by chance; they were basically saying, Hey, take care of all these cultural initiatives, or we need to improve our culture. What do you suggest? Culture is a collective responsibility.

Same as a city, the culture of a city is not created by the major; it's not created by the police or doctors; it's created by everyone who contributes to it. However, saying that it's everyone's responsibility can make you feel that, hey, then no one takes care of it. So we need to define clear roles. The leader, in the end, needs to define the long-term vision of the culture and need to model the behaviors that are okay and are not okay.

They can have that level of dialogue, trust, and connection with people that the parents or leaders don't have, but they don't own culture. And that's something that sometimes becomes, because it's very tempting when you're involved in those conversations to try to control or guide culture. We cannot.

Then, in the end, the people, with their behaviors, what they bring to the table, and their unique perspectives, turn culture into what it is. So, a major can define if this avenue is a two-way street, but then how many lanes? If there are going to be bike lanes, of course they should. But then, if you have musicians, people like painting graffiti, the way people dress, the music they listen to, the cars they drive—that also adds to the culture.

So going back to the ABCs that we talked about earlier, the alignment, so the long-term vision, that's a leader's responsibility. Then, the other two areas are how we create a sense of belonging that should be defined by every team and the collaboration. We need to have macro rules across the organization, but every team needs to have theirs.

Like when it comes to hybrid, for example, you need to have a policy when it comes to hybrid, but work and the work of each team should define how those people work, not at a top level.

Tim Reitsma: Absolutely. I agree with that. It's setting that framework up. And I think that's where HR has a massive role in setting up that framework.

I've heard it; I've been involved in this. I'm assuming, hopefully it's safe to assume that you've heard it as well as leaders in an organization say, HR, you're responsible for culture; go create some initiatives. We're going hybrid. We're going remote. We're going back to the office. Figure this out.

What advice would you give HR, a human resource leader, somebody in people's culture? What's a practical piece of advice you could give someone to say? Look, it's a joint effort, not just my responsibility. 

Gustavo Razzetti: Definitely. I work with a lot of leaders and a lot of HR people, and usually the first contact that I have with any potential client, new clients are HR people.

And to your point, some know what they want, but many are kind of, Hey, I feel the pressure. I've been asked that we need to do something about our culture. What are the right starting points for me? First of all, leaders jump too quickly into the future, which is okay. That's how they think they're visionary, but you cannot define or improve your culture without first understanding where you are today.

So my first piece of advice always is, Do you really have a clear grasp of your culture? And I'm not talking about an engagement survey. I'm talking about going deep into: do people really understand your purpose and values and what's expected? What are the behaviors? Do people get frustrated because there's inconsistency between what leaders say and not between what they say and what they do, so they don't walk the talk? That kind of stuff.

Those are the critical elements that we need to first understand.

Tim Reitsma: It's creating that, that culture map, if you will. And I know you've got a lot of great resources on your website. We'll make sure we link to those in the show notes, but I agree whoever is trying to improve something or change something, we got to understand where we are today.

When we think of the future of work, we don't know what the future is going to hold. So it's really hard to say, Hey, this is how we're going to plan for the future or how we're going to set ourselves up for success. 

When you think of the future of work, we're hybrid; we're remote. There's a lot of talk about going back to the office; how can we still maintain and foster that strong and cohesive culture? And then how does HR play that role? 

Gustavo Razzetti: Absolutely. I think that one of the things I missed to communicate earlier is that when we talk about responsibilities, the HR folks have a key role in providing the clarity and making sure everyone's getting the right message and communicating across what's expected, what's okay, and what's not okay.

So someone needs to take care of that communication, the sort of nurturing, the sort of follow-up, so you cannot simply define the culture and then wait for it to happen. You need to coach people; you need to support them.

In that regard, I think that when it comes to the future of work, one of the things I'm observing is that the policies are written for a reason and then communicated through other lenses.

Take Amazon. Amazon is having a lot of business issues. And they're using the return to the office as an excuse first to not address the elephant in the room, but second they know they're going to piss off a lot of people, and people are going to leave or look for another job. So it's a nice way to reduce, basically, the headcount.

So it's not about what's best for the company for the culture. It's what's best for the financial. Sometimes we disguise financial decisions through the lens of culture; the way we work, the office per se, proximity doesn't guarantee belonging. There are companies that have been working forever, fully remote. There are companies that work in hybrid space. There were companies that work fully in person. And you see within those models great cultures. Mediocre cultures and really bad cultures.

Tim Reitsma: It doesn't seem to matter where people are working or how they're working. There's good and bad cultures, regardless if you're all in the office, sitting at a desk, in a cubicle, or fully dispersed around the globe.

I was having a conversation with the CEO recently about culture, and it was just a hard conversation for them to grasp. That it's not something tactical; they crave being back in the office. And, and that's great. I lay my bias or my opinions aside. That's what this leader is craving. And that's what they want. 

It's not just a matter that this is what I'm craving. So we're going to create it. But understanding the why. Let's get asked the hard questions, and HR professionals, HR leaders, maybe you're just starting off in your career, just putting on that coach hat and being like, What is it about being in the office that you're craving?

Unpack that from a culture perspective versus going, Oh, okay. I guess we're going back to the office now. That's a hard conversation to have. 

What's your advice for having that hard conversation? Maybe this is a small organization and you're an HR coordinator and you're not quite

sure.     You understand that direction, or maybe you're a senior leader, and you maybe have that skillset to go and have that conversation. But I guess my question is that's a hard conversation to have. How do you have it? 

Gustavo Razzetti: It's hard. And before we jump into how we facilitate that conversation, I think that you nail it when you talk about motivations.

So I have been a former CEO myself. So when you're in the big corner office, you have like two or three admins that bring you the coffee, print stuff, and fix everything for you. That's a level of comfort and safety that when you're working from home, I mean, your spouse is not going to prepare the meal for you. It's not going to grab your favorite drink.It's not going to print stuff for you. You don't know how to print or take care of basic tech things that you have people that take care of.

So that power play and the comfort of that role in the office for certain positions. You missed that. So you want that. And that's okay with your point. We're not going to impose our biases. However, leaders need to understand that what's good for them is not necessarily good for the rest of the people. Why would you bring people back to the office simply to be emailing or slacking or writing stuff on their computers or using AI when their team members are right there, but they're not actually having any different interaction?

So bring them in with a purpose. The point is not to bring them back to the office like people run away. They ran away because there was a pandemic. People learn to work remotely. And then they show, Hey, not only we kept businesses afloat, but actually many of them kept growing and thriving. So people say, Hey, I prove to you that I can do it. Now I learn it. Now I bought the equipment. I have the right stuff. Why should I return?

But there are people who want to be in the office full time. So, it's not one size fits all. And that's basically the most important thing. So going back to how to engage the conversation, as leaders, why is it that you think that and then challenge? Do you think that what's good for you is right for people and then bring people's perspective and rather turn into a one versus the other is okay? Can we find common ground? It's not black or white. It's the best of both worlds.

Tim Reitsma: That's so good. Finding that common ground is a hard conversation to facilitate. I'm sure an HR leader or somebody on the people culture team is squirming in their seat right now as we're listening to this going. Oh, I don't want to have that conversation, and it's hard. I think the key is we don't need to approach it with a place of being defensive. It's a place of curiosity.

What is it about coming back to the office? What is it about these values? What is it about this purpose? Because it just helps us reinforce the narrative we need to communicate within our organizations because, let's face it, we're at the forefront of internal communications. And so we either take what the CEO or founder or whoever is created and just resend it or we can get curious. So we have a better understanding. 

We don't need to be bought in. But we need to have a better understanding. And what are your thoughts on that? Would you agree, or what would you add to that? 

Gustavo Razzetti: More than agree or disagree. I mean, you're on the right track, but I'm kind of a break stomach. You're opening a lot of interesting conversation points.

You talk about having the conversation sometimes, and especially if you have people that are maybe still new to the job or maybe have five years or whatever they're not used to going and challenging a CEO. They're afraid because of repercussions.

In my experience, for whatever reason, I learned to speak up when I was 15 years old, whatever, very young, to leaders and speak truth to power, is that leaders might not like what you have to say, might not like that you push back, but they always appreciate it. Leaders, as they climb the ladder, stop getting feedback.

People stop giving feedback; they tell them what they want to hear; they're afraid, and they know that. So when someone comes to a point, not defensive, but from a positive intent place to say, Hey, maybe we're missing something. What about this? So presenting more like a question, have you considered X, Y, and Z?

They might get mad, but they're not going to fire you. And if they fire you, it's because of the wrong leader. That's so it's better sooner.

Tim Reitsma: I love that. Sooner or later. If you get reprimanded or told to stop asking questions, “don't challenge me.” Then it's a conversation about maybe I'm not in the right place.

That's internal reflection. That's where somebody's listening to this; they have to take that to heart a little bit. Maybe it's okay. Maybe that's fine. But in the context of culture, that is also an element of the culture that is existing or is going to exist.

Gustavo Razzetti: Yeah. Mediocrity is not in our DNA; it's a choice. So the moment we stop fighting for what we think is right, we lower our own expectations on bars. So if many of your audience or listeners are, let's say halfway through their careers, and they decide to settle and say, Here, this is how far I'm willing to push, you're going to end up in a very frustrating place years from now. So, without risks, there's no reward.

Tim Reitsma: Absolutely. Again, it's you approaching it through that lens of curiosity. Even in your framework, looking at your culture design canvas and how you fill it out is through that lens of curiosity.

You brought up Amazon. I was wondering if that was going to get brought up. I'm glad you went there because it's everywhere right now. Whether you're listening to this the day it was released or five years after it's been released, you're going to remember that Amazon said, Sorry, everyone's coming back to the office and people are scratching their heads.

And like you said, there's likely something underlying that's motivating this change. You've written a book, “Remote, Not Distant.” And I feel that it's a good time to bring that up because I've heard from CEOs and I've heard from HR leaders who are forced now to mandate back to the office, return to the office, and they're not even bought in themselves.

They're looking for firepower, if you will, to just say, Hey, maybe this is a consideration. What prompted you to write this book in the context of the future of work? 

Gustavo Razzetti: Yeah, sure. To be honest with you and the audience, I was writing a book about culture design, so intentionally define the culture you have and the one you want, and a pandemic hit halfway through the book.

My client was, What do we do? So I basically rewrote the book through that lens, interviewing people and going through a lot of research. And the biggest, for me, most important finding is that we shouldn't let schedule dictate our work, but rather the work dictate our schedule.

The question you should ask is not how many days in the... Many people, when they focus on hybrid, share different hybrid models, and people get stuck in the 3 and 2 or whatever that doesn't work. Maybe there's a week or maybe two weeks that you need the full team together, crushing it like crazy because they need to solve a big problem or there are some alignment issues that you need to, and maybe you don't need to see each other for a month or two.

So rather than a very rigid approach, let the work, let the issues. What are we trying to solve as a team? And then define the structure. There is a lot of research that shows that companies that have adopted work from anywhere, anytime, because it's not just a physical or geographical flexibility location, but it's also how we manage our time.

Let's take Airbnb. Let's take Spotify. Let's take Allstate, which is maybe not as well-known as the other two. All those are doing great in terms of business. They have increased their diversity quotas. They have much more women in leadership positions. So a lot of things have happened. Their sense of belonging and connection has gone to the roof when people have the choice, and those who want to be in the office are in the office, those who want to work remotely work remotely, and those who are a mix arrangement do that as well.

So because when people have ownership, they can make the decisions, and they also have ownership in achieving results. When they're forced to operate in a way, they then lower going to lower their expectations as well.

Tim Reitsma: My wife, she's a creative person, very creative. And she often says even on her podcast, which is in that creative space, when she interviews artists, they say, Don't put parameters around me; don't tell me exactly what to do; set the guidelines; and let me create.

I just love that. I think that's what you're saying. It reminds me of it from a creative perspective. We are creative, and it could be somebody is there in finance, listening to this going. I'm not creative, but when do you do your best work? I don't do my best work 9 to 5. I just don't.

There's parameters that there's meetings I need to be part of, but get me up at 5 o'clock in the morning, or if I drink coffee at 9 p.m., I'm good to go for hours. That's what I do my best work. So forcing somebody into an office, you know, I'm biased to don't do that.

What I'm saying is, if that's your culture, just own it. And if that's what you need from your teams, that's what you want; own it. People will select themselves. People might join your organization, but if that's your culture, that's what you'd want to define; own it. What's your thoughts on that?

Gustavo Razzetti: No, a hundred percent agree in two ways. First of all. Leaders have the right to say, Hey, this is how we want to work. My question or challenge is, Make sure that you consider the impact. Don't just put, I mean, leaders like to double down on decisions just to show that they're in control. But going back to your comment, own it also means don't bullshit people.

So if you want them because you want to be surrounded by people, or if you haven't evolved and you still stick to how business used to run like 20 years ago. Well, say, don't create like we're losing our culture. People are not connected or bring stuff that people know. It's not for real to make an excuse.

So own it, own the decision, but own the why too.

Tim Reitsma: Powerful and yet simple and hard at the same time is own that why. It means you're going to have to do some work. It means you're going to have to maybe sit down as a founder, pull in the people you trust, and ask them to challenge you. Don't get defensive. 

My good friend, Matthew Gould, has often said that feedback is a gift. You either choose to accept it or you can just return it. It's up to you, but take that feedback, but don't get defensive about it. 

I think that's a good segue into HR's role in the future of work in the confines or the parameters of culture. In the research you've done, where do you see the future of work going in that context of culture and HR's role in that?

Gustavo Razzetti: The first thing that came to mind is that what has happened beyond where we work is that people get stuck into that stuff. Our relationship with work has been completely disrupted. And even for generations like me, the work is everything. Work is our identity. And we work like crazy. We started thinking that maybe work is just work. It doesn't define who we are.

So that's affecting not only how much the role, let's say, that workplace within our lives, the priority we give, how much energy, whatever we want to give to it, but also what kind of satisfaction it brings. So this affects it, on one hand, loyalty, right? So many people are exploring the idea, Hey, I can be a freelancer.

I can work for multiple companies rather than just one. And I'm not talking about the people that get a full-time job and then they're working more companies. That's not supporting that.

But many people are starting to see, well, maybe I can work half of my time into a job. That's the one I've been doing. And maybe half an hour of my time in something that's either more creative or more inspirational or more challenging, whatever. So people are starting to think, and that's for me, part of the future of work: fewer employees that we own and more resources.

On the other hand, I am really transforming this because people immediately, with a good reason, say, Hey, the sooner, the people can replace me. They're going to do that. They're going to use artificial intelligence to do my work.

One thing that's interesting is that research shows that people are trusting AI more than their colleagues. So what these happen is if you write and even themselves, so you write something and AI corrects it, 95, whatever the people use the AI response. They don't try to integrate one or challenge AI. So, they adopt AI as the truth, which is an issue, and we see a lot of leaders that either because it looks good or whatever that they are saying. Hey, I'm brainstorming with AI without my team members. I'm getting better responses than from my team members.

Then, to add to the complexity, leaders, because it's cool because they want people to experiment because no one wants to be left behind, are promoting people to try AI, but on the other hand, people are hiding that they're using AI because then they feel that they are cheating or they feel, Hey, if you say, I don't need you. So we're living a dynamic. That's really, really interesting about what's going to happen with technology and people.

Tim Reitsma: That intersects technology and people. I mean, that's one of the foundations, FlexOS.work, the website, the publications—all the work that a founder Daan is doing in the AI space is our relationship with AI.

It's here. It's coming. We think it's here, but I think it's just got one foot in the door. It's evolving so much. 

And to that, if you're in HR and you're listening to this, and maybe you're already using AI to write your policies or your processes. I partner with people, and I think CEOs, and maybe you can either agree or disagree with this or challenge this: we hire people for their creativity and their brain.

When I use AI, it's biased to how I want to ask that question. And get a response. If you put three or four very different people in a room, you might actually come up with a different response. And you can hone that and define that with AI, but I think the future of work and where HR plays a role is fostering that environment and creating that and embracing it now more so than ever, and because that's how you're adding value is your creativity. 

Gustavo Razzetti: Definitely. The point is it's a little bit complex in the sense that when we talk about creativity, there are many instances. I mean, your wife is a great person, so you might have heard this. There's an ideation portion. There's a curation, idea selection, and then the nurturing and then the implementation.

People are getting stuck on that. But on one hand, most ideas, even if you're good at creating paragraph scripts, make a successful movie. So that area, like selecting ideas, curating ideas, choosing the right one, nurturing the idea, and turning it into something big. But most people don't value that process. They value the idea generation, and they choose one by voting, or I like this because I'm the leader, and let's go for it.

Tim Reitsma: In the context of workplace culture, leaders or HR?

Gustavo Razzetti: The second page. So whatever were the top results, that was people's reality, not the millions of results behind that. So basically, they are not learning. Everyone's reading the same stuff, so to speak.

With AI, exactly the same is happening. We are all basically asking the same source for the same kind of give or take, the same kind of information. So HR needs to find a way to make sure that we can expand that pool versus narrow it down, which is what's happening today.

First, to your point, there are a lot of biases not only in the algorithms themselves but also in the way people are asking the questions. So you want a culture that's exactly what every other HR is creating with the same tool, or you want to use the tool but to jump and do something completely different.

Tim Reitsma: I love that. I think that's a good lesson, not just for HR folks. But if we think about the future of work, how do we integrate these tools through that lens of culture?

In order to do that, we have to go all the way back to defining what our culture is and how culture evolves as we know it does. I think that's a great place to kind of wrap up or wind down the conversation, except I've got one question.

If somebody is an aspiring. HR leader and wants to begin mastering their workplace culture and understanding culture to stand out as that culture leader champion through that lens of the future of work. What's that one piece of advice you'd give an HR professional? 

Gustavo Razzetti: Besides joining one of our trainings, I think that you need not underestimate your role. There's a tendency that people look into other organizations. to see what they've done and look for that. What's a successful case study? What are the things that I can apply?

Inspiration is always good, but for me, it's like being authentic. The answer is within yourself, not outside. So you're being brought to this job to help this organization. What's your perspective? What's your unique touch? What's the thing that you can bring to make that company unique and trust your instincts?

Because great companies are unique. They're not exactly the same. They can be weird. They can be more formal. They can be more aggressive, but they're unique in nature. When you find that, people are going to want to work with you versus you having to pursue candidates to apply for your company.

Tim Reitsma: It's so good. You have to have. I love that. That's reassuring. That's refreshing to me because a lot of the stuff that I read online specifically about workplace culture, and I read a lot through the lens of the other work I do in disability inclusion, says the same: it says identify your why, here's your values, but you need to do that. But start through that lens of authenticity and uniqueness. 

I'm going to take that away and bring that to some of my clients. That's super actionable. I've loved this conversation. I'm sure we can go on for some time. Where can people find you? Where can people reach you? How can they take your training and read your books? Where's a good place for people to start? 

Gustavo Razzetti: The easiest way to find me is on LinkedIn. I'm very active there, but also I'm the only Gustavo Razzetti with double zz and double tt. And then you can check. I mean, I have a blog and substack. I publish an article every Sunday, 7 a.m. Eastern time, with very new tools and new perspectives on culture.

And then our website, fearlessculture.design. And there you can also have tools and articles, and you can check our training or reach out and then take it from there.

Tim Reitsma: I love it. One thing I appreciate about your work is that you give so much value. You talk about the how, not just why we need to do it, and then say, sign up, and use that as your sales pitch or your lead generator.

It's, Hey, I'm going to give you so much value, and you do; you give an incredible amount of value. And yeah, I want to explore some of your trainings and pick up your new book and add it to my collection behind me on my bookshelf. If you're watching the video. I've got a growing collection, and I love to share out these resources with others.

Gustavo, appreciate you. Thank you for coming on to the FlexOS podcast, the future of work, and HR's role in that.